Bridgett Burrick Brown (00:01.302) Hi, Anita. Thank you so much for being here. How are you? Anita (00:05.206) I'm good, thank you for having me. Bridgett Burrick Brown (00:07.256) I'm so excited to chat. I found you on social media and I was like, what is she doing? Like, what is this book? I need to read it. It was so interesting. So we're going to dive into all of it today. Anita (00:23.342) Amazing. Excited. Excited to chat more. Bridgett Burrick Brown (00:26.058) Yeah. So I'm curious to start just where did your passion for writing about beauty standards come from? Anita (00:37.23) So I think it really started when, well I guess my obsession with beauty started when I was quite young and initially it was just about the joy of beauty and I remember buying this sort of really cheap green mascara and it was just fun and I was like this is silly, this is great and Then I think eventually as makeup does and society does, it started to become more about looking pretty. And I was really struggling with my self-esteem around my appearance. I grew up in the nineties, which is notoriously, you know, body shaming and, you know, racist and like all of these great things. So I, yeah, I had a really tough time with my appearance and. Bridgett Burrick Brown (01:20.31) Ha ha ha. Anita (01:24.884) So I used to use makeup and beauty as a way to of try and fit in and to feel okay about the way I look. And so I've always had a very strong emotional connection to it. And then as I sort of, you know, got a bit older and got into my career, et cetera, I, yeah, I just sort of gravitated towards beauty journalism. always wanted to be a journalist. I sort of started into more mainstream journalism and then was like, wow, okay, I can write about beauty for a living. Amazing. I'm going to do that. Bridgett Burrick Brown (01:30.84) Hmm. Anita (01:53.108) And I've always come at beauty from, I guess, a slightly different perspective in that, and not wanting to generalise completely, but there is, there is big part of the beauty and fashion world that, you know, is the epitome of what those things represent, you know, that everyone is very beautiful or, you know, has a lot of privilege in lots of different ways. And I think I've sat so far on the outside of that, that that has kind of always been my steer in terms of what I talk about, what I'm interested in and... I guess hopefully my message as well. Bridgett Burrick Brown (02:24.536) Yeah. So do you feel like initially you started off sort of finding joy in it or maybe even something that you could cling onto that maybe would make you feel more accepted by society? Do you think that was like initially sort of the draw to it? Because I'm curious then like, when did you start questioning the beauty ideal or really noticing it? Anita (02:43.457) Yeah. Anita (02:54.67) So I, yes, I used to become really obsessed with, you know, any kind of products I could find. And I grew up in Wales in the UK, which is not super diverse. And so I couldn't get any products in my skin tone, which sounds quite weird to us now, but you know, it was very much the case. And it's sometimes still the case in the UK, I have to say. It's not, it's not great. So I used to have to really experiment and put a lot of effort into finding even like basic products. Bridgett Burrick Brown (03:11.576) Hmm. Bridgett Burrick Brown (03:16.106) Absolutely. Anita (03:24.76) So my interest, I guess it kind of started there and then it slowly began to tip over into me putting a lot of hope onto the product that, you know, it would finally make me feel pretty or someone would finally notice me or I'd finally fit in. And so I always had an attachment to products in that way and to beauty products and the way I looked. And then I think as I got older, it wasn't really until probably 10 years ago, I think in my career when I was, you know, relatively sort of senior, was a beauty editor at a magazine and I just started to think to myself, have put myself, actually it was a therapist that sort of mentioned this to me and said, you've put yourself in this environment that's exactly the same as all the other environments you've been in and that you are the outsider. You know, like I guess, like I was at school, like I felt all my life, you are now trying to access beauty through working in it. Bridgett Burrick Brown (03:57.122) Mm-hmm. Bridgett Burrick Brown (04:15.128) Mmm. Anita (04:23.002) and you still don't feel beautiful and you still don't feel pretty and you still don't feel all these things and it was just a real light bulb for me. I just thought yeah she is right there is still something off and as well I guess on top of that I could also see that the industry wasn't changing enough and I didn't feel like magazines as well it didn't feel like it was as forward thinking or as inclusive as it should be and I think all of those things together just made me think there is something here. Bridgett Burrick Brown (04:31.832) Bridgett Burrick Brown (04:38.807) Yeah. Bridgett Burrick Brown (04:47.072) Yeah. Anita (04:51.362) that I need to work on personally, but also is a bigger thing too. Bridgett Burrick Brown (04:51.714) There's some. Bridgett Burrick Brown (04:55.384) Yeah, there's something off. It like she almost like helped you connect the dots. Yeah. Tell us that moment you talk about this in your book, ugly. Tell us about the moment that you first sort of really understood what that word meant to other people or as a society. Anita (05:00.704) Yeah, absolutely. Anita (05:18.911) Yeah, I mean, I'd always had a concept of feeling ugly, I think, since I was a very small child. I, one of the anecdotes I tell in the book is about, I think when I was about four, I went to a princess party and everyone got to pick one of these like really pretty princess outfits from sort of like a rail of fancy dress outfits and When I got to the front of the queue, the woman who was giving out the outfits looked me up and down and was like, you're too big. And then she sort of gave me this really like ugly outfit to wear instead. And it was like a butterfly. And I was like, I don't want to be a butterfly. I want to be a princess like everyone else. And I just remember it so distinctly because it was the first time someone said there was something wrong with the way I look. it sort of, I guess it kind of just sort of marked everything I did from then onwards. Bridgett Burrick Brown (05:52.312) Mm. Bridgett Burrick Brown (05:59.127) Yeah. Anita (06:14.688) and sort of was almost like this cloud like hanging over me. And then I guess gradually over time, I started to take in more and more of those messages because I guess almost that sort of veneer had already been cracked a little bit. yeah, absolutely. then, yeah, yeah, was thinking, no, younger, I was like, I think I was about four, I hadn't even started school yet. So Bridgett Burrick Brown (06:28.344) Yeah, that seed was planted, right? You were pretty young then, right? If I remember correctly. Like seven young? Anita (06:44.63) Really young, really young. And then it wasn't that I guess the word, I'd always felt ugly, but I don't think I realized the power of that word until I was at one of the titles he worked for. And we would do this very popular feature every week where we would test out different sort of catwalk trends and It would be me, would be my other two team members. I was sort of the most junior, I think, at this point. And we would, yeah, we'd all try them out. And someone left a comment on that feature online saying Anita Bagwandis is really ugly. And I think it was particularly harsh because I literally was pictured next to my two sort of white colleagues as well. And I just remember thinking, wow. Like, I can almost still feel it. Like, just remember thinking someone has gone out of their way to do that. And Bridgett Burrick Brown (07:30.978) Yeah. Anita (07:39.678) And it's very personal because they've literally looked at my other two colleagues and gone, that one's ugly. And I just remember at that point as well in my career where I was doing really, really well and I'd won loads of awards. think I'd won about four or five awards that year. And so I really should have been like, my God, this is great. know, like the outsider is finally like making good of a difference or whatever, but it didn't, really just hit me. And I was like, wow, this is... Bridgett Burrick Brown (07:44.696) Hmm. Anita (08:06.828) Yeah, I just felt I remember feeling really awful. And then it wasn't until years later, I was like, that really affected me. And I wanted to pick and pick the reason why that that really sort of, I guess almost like, it just sort of seemed to cancel out everything I'd achieved and done. And I remember feeling it really bitterly. was like, I've still worked this hard. And I'm still the ugly one. And that just, yeah. Bridgett Burrick Brown (08:16.929) Yeah. Bridgett Burrick Brown (08:24.472) Aww, yeah. Bridgett Burrick Brown (08:32.032) And how many, yeah, do you feel like women do that quite often too? Because our appearance is so important to us. Anita (08:43.776) Yeah, think we do. And then I think we grow up being told that we're cute and pretty and we look nice and all of these compliments about our appearance, I know people are trying to really readdress now. But I guess for a lot of us that damage has already been done and it's already planted quite deep within us. And obviously we can work to rewrite that, but it is really hard. Bridgett Burrick Brown (08:47.064) Meh. Bridgett Burrick Brown (08:57.664) Yeah, yeah, our conversation. Bridgett Burrick Brown (09:09.046) Yeah. Yeah. Anita (09:10.73) and society is set up to value women for their appearance first. Bridgett Burrick Brown (09:15.096) Absolutely. So in your book, you also explore how beauty standards were built. What's the biggest force, like what are the biggest forces, historical, cultural, economic, that keep these ideals in place? I know that's a big question, but I know you can answer it. Anita (09:34.547) It is. Yeah, mean, I'll try my best. There's lots of forces. I think the biggest one, I think the one we probably talk about the most is patriarchy and that historical control that men have had over everything, know, historically in society. Bridgett Burrick Brown (09:39.0) I was like, how can I combine this question? Bridgett Burrick Brown (09:51.853) Yep. Bridgett Burrick Brown (09:56.822) Yeah, the white men. Anita (09:58.658) The power imbalance, yeah, yeah, definitely. That's had a massive part over, you know, how women look and continues to do so. Yeah. Bridgett Burrick Brown (10:09.144) Can you unpack that a little bit for listeners? Because I think some people are like, what are you talking about? Anita (10:15.432) Yeah, I think we sometimes sort of distance ourselves from history, we are a historical product. We are the product of generations and centuries of people and ideals. And if we even go back, I don't know, 40 years even, to the mid-century, still didn't have, women's place was at the home, which is obviously fine, but that was all they were limited to. Bridgett Burrick Brown (10:32.6) Yeah. Anita (10:42.402) you they were very much judged on their appearance and you you had to sort of stay slim and you had to look a certain way and you know, there were lots of, I guess there was a lot of pressure around women always looking good and looking desirable to the male gaze. Bridgett Burrick Brown (10:45.4) Bridgett Burrick Brown (10:57.024) And yeah, almost like for our survival as well. Like if you go way back, but even during, if you even go back just 40 years, it's like we couldn't get credit cards or get mortgages for houses. And it's like you really depended on the mail for survival in some ways. Anita (11:03.565) Yeah. Anita (11:18.252) Yeah, absolutely. Like you really did. You know, if the only chance of really getting out of your family home and progressing in life was to marry someone and to marry the best person you could and to do that, you sort of, you know, in some way you sort of had, I guess had to be look the best you could. And that was sort of how those things worked. And yeah, it was, it was, yeah, it was often a case of survival and being able to sort of have your own. family in your own life and not, I don't know, just not exist, I guess. So that's definitely one of the, I think one of the biggest forces that controls how we look and our beauty standards, et cetera. I think the other is definitely race and white supremacy, which I know can be a really jarring word to hear because we don't necessarily think about white supremacy anymore because it feels so archaic as a term. It's like, that sounds like... Bridgett Burrick Brown (11:55.136) Yep, absolutely. Bridgett Burrick Brown (12:08.345) Mm-hmm, yep. Bridgett Burrick Brown (12:16.35) It's so not. Anita (12:18.124) And it's not, it's not, and it's something that plays out around us all the time. And again, it's, it's. Yeah. Bridgett Burrick Brown (12:22.072) It can sound jarring. remember I took a body image, like I got a certification in body image. And I remember when I was learning about it, I was like, ooh, that's like, it's a lot. And then as I dove into it and I learned about it, I'm like, that's, we need to be talking about that. Anita (12:43.726) Yeah, yeah, I definitely agree with that. It's, it is really jarring, but it is a part of our life now. And it obviously was a massive part of history. And we still live with the effects of that. And in terms of beauty standards, you know, it affects everything from colorism, which is sort of the preference for a lighter skin tone over a darker one. And the values placed on that in different cultures, that quite often is a result of colonization. Bridgett Burrick Brown (12:51.938) Mm-hmm. Bridgett Burrick Brown (12:56.63) Yeah. Bridgett Burrick Brown (13:04.407) Yep. Anita (13:10.934) or was definitely amplified by colonization throughout the world. And I guess on top of that as well is sort of, there's a really interesting period in history that I feel like should actually be taught in schools, which was when there was a point during colonization, I think it was like around at some point in the 1800s where the beauty standards went from sort of appreciating, I guess, like a slightly fuller figure and thinking that was, you Bridgett Burrick Brown (13:14.54) Mm-hmm. Anita (13:41.034) the sign of someone who was wealthy enough to eat. So that was aspirational, et cetera, to being the opposite and all of a sudden very, very slim, thin, white bodies became. Bridgett Burrick Brown (13:43.768) Wealthy and yeah. Bridgett Burrick Brown (13:55.096) I think that was during slavery. Anita (13:58.571) Yes, yeah. Bridgett Burrick Brown (13:58.668) which I know happened for a long time, but like, think it was because, you know, the white woman was so different from what the, right? Anita (14:07.564) Yeah, yeah, it was this this is really interesting because there are parts of during slavery and colonization where the references from explorers and I'm doing air quotes now, just because explorers quite often we just like colon colonizes basically. But you know, there were parts there were points where explorers would write about the people that they would find in new places and they would be quite positive and there's lots of interesting accounts of that and there's a point where it switches. Bridgett Burrick Brown (14:23.756) Yeah. Bridgett Burrick Brown (14:37.592) interesting. Anita (14:37.654) when and the accounts start to become quite negative around the bodies of people of colour, particularly women of colour. And so everything that wasn't that was seen as beautiful and became the beauty standard. And it shifts in terms of paintings, that all the paintings, which is obviously the photography of the bygone times, you know, all the paintings, all the beauties, the ideal beauty started to become very, very thin. They were always white. Bridgett Burrick Brown (14:48.376) Mm-hmm. Anita (15:05.346) they were, you know, they had certain characteristics, very, very long necks. They were just sort of that English beauty that we see, we now come to know from paintings of the 1800s. And that shift is really fascinating because it does have its roots in white supremacy. And, you know, that beauty standard wasn't actually that long ago because it it sort of coincides with the point where, Bridgett Burrick Brown (15:11.042) Yeah. Anita (15:33.25) the printing presses, et cetera, start to start happening and people start getting very rudimentary magazines and things like that. And the people that were seen as the most beautiful were these upper class white women. And those are the people that then start writing these magazines and these columns and it, and like, know, that still plays out to this day. I always remember interning at a very high end fashion magazine and everyone was related to somebody. Everyone was lady someone's daughter. Bridgett Burrick Brown (15:49.656) yeah. Bridgett Burrick Brown (15:54.552) Mm-hmm. Anita (16:02.122) Everyone had all gone to the same boarding school. Everyone knew someone famous. I was just like, wow, this is something else. And you know, that still happens. That is still what dominates our media. Like so many industries, but particularly fashion and beauty. And that's still happening. And so you can see that legacy. It's still, you know, it still plays out to this day. And so I think sometimes when we talk about white supremacy, we sort of think old fashioned, but actually not. And when I remember reading that and I just thought, wow, this is, I have seen this play out. Bridgett Burrick Brown (16:27.096) Mm-mm. Anita (16:32.298) I still see this play out now in my industry and it's wild. Bridgett Burrick Brown (16:33.878) You still see it. Well, when you talk about it in terms of like legacy that really like, I get that. Makes sense. It doesn't just go away. It's still trickling down. It's that like trickle ripple effect. Do you think that social media has disrupted this beauty ideal a bit or do you think it's simply reinforcing this pretty privilege in a different way? Anita (16:44.984) Yeah. No. Anita (17:03.103) Yeah, I it's really tricky because in some ways I think social media has given people who maybe don't fit the beauty standard or the beauty ideal, you know different communities and people to inspire them and I've definitely felt that myself too, you know I think during this part of the body positivity movement So I guess maybe like 10 years ago that had a really big impact on me And I thought that was amazing and I finally saw bodies that looked more like mine But I think it has turned because as soon as you start getting, I don't know, as soon as money starts coming in, as soon as brands start coming in, everything starts to shift. And I definitely think we're at a point now where it's just the same faces that we used to see in magazines and adverts, et cetera, that are now playing out on social media. The same things are happening again. And it's a certain kind of person that is always celebrated and has the most followers. And then on top of that, the algorithms price and Bridgett Burrick Brown (17:53.816) Mmm Anita (17:58.286) appearance characteristics, things like, you know, having like, very clear skin and having lighter eyes and having lighter skin and being slimmer, you know, algorithms prize all of those things. And so those people are being elevated over and over again. Yeah, there's lots of really interesting research into it. There's a brilliant, so terrible names, I've forgotten the name, but there's MIT researcher who's looked into it, the sort of like, all the algorithmic racism that plays out. Bridgett Burrick Brown (17:59.864) Hmm. Bridgett Burrick Brown (18:10.379) Really? Bridgett Burrick Brown (18:18.88) the worst. Bridgett Burrick Brown (18:26.178) So there's racism in our algorithms on social media. my god. Anita (18:29.1) Yes. Yeah. And the filters, know, every, you know, even just like the Paris filter, the very basic one on Instagram is, you know, that lightens your skin a little bit. It's, it's, it's, it's literally woven throughout everything. Yeah. Bridgett Burrick Brown (18:39.029) Yeah. Like subtle. I interviewed someone yesterday and she said that she feels like we're swimming in diet culture. And I feel like that's also what this beauty ideal, it's like, it's just like the waters that we swim in. And she explained it as it can be so loud or just so subtle, but it's everywhere. And it's almost, it's been everywhere since you were born that you don't even realize it. that you're just conditioned over time. And yeah, that's wild. Do you feel like this pretty privilege is almost just packaged differently now? Or are you seeing it pretty much still packaged the same way? Anita (19:14.785) Yeah. Anita (19:24.686) I think it's packaged the same way. know growing up for me, the beauty standard was very much to be thin, white, have straight hair. Maybe that's changed a little bit. Ideally to be blonde, have blue eyes. And I think maybe that shifted a tiny bit in that there are some other slight variations on that. But I do think it's largely the same. Bridgett Burrick Brown (19:39.608) Not really. Bridgett Burrick Brown (19:50.818) Let's start. Cheers. Anita (19:52.758) maybe it's now a little bit more Kardashian inspired and that you can have slightly tan skin and that is now seen as beautiful and that's great. yeah, a little bit curvier, but only if you're now like a perfect hourglass, you know. I think what is interesting is that you can now buy pretty privilege in a way that is much more acceptable than it used to be. think there was definitely... Bridgett Burrick Brown (20:01.302) or a little bit curvier. Anita (20:19.328) rightly or wrongly, a lot more stigma around cosmetic surgery. And there seems to be less of that now, partially because it's become so normalized and partially because it's a huge industry that goes after us. And we have to really remember that, you know, it wants our money. It's not an altruistic industry in any way. And I think that has become Bridgett Burrick Brown (20:23.032) Hmm. Bridgett Burrick Brown (20:35.672) Mmm. Bridgett Burrick Brown (20:42.475) Yeah. Anita (20:45.922) so normalized that actually you can buy pretty privilege in some ways. So I think the example that I find really fascinating is, I think, my God, can't, I think it's it's Gabrielle, isn't it? I can never, I always think of her as Lisa Rinner's daughter from Real Housewives. Anyway, she kind of like bought a new face and all of a sudden is now a model. Same for Bella Hadid, know, not wanting to speculate, her, you know, her photos are completely different and that, Bridgett Burrick Brown (21:02.289) yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Bridgett Burrick Brown (21:10.208) Yeah. interesting. Yeah. Huh. Well, the Kardashians, I guess, too. Anita (21:15.972) She looks completely different, it's completely different face. Yeah, I mean, it's kind of everywhere. And that is totally fine. I'm not against cosmetic surgery. I'm against it being presented as real life. I'm against it being presented as, look, I just used a nice lip gloss or I drank some weight loss tea or whatever. You know, that's not the truth. Bridgett Burrick Brown (21:34.488) It's like, it's just a whole another form of like social engineering. It's like actually happening on our, you know, in real life. Anita (21:45.164) Yeah. And it's, it's, it's Patriot. mean, it, it, it's got elements, you know, patriarchal control because the majority of people in that industry are male. The majority of those cosmetic surgeons are male. That industry is very male dominated, very, which is really problematic because that's it's men putting their beauty standards on women. But then on top of that, there, you know, so many of the barometers of what I've seen as the perfect nose and the perfect nose is often defined as having like a very, can't remember the name, but I think it's like. Bridgett Burrick Brown (21:53.922) Mm-hmm. Bridgett Burrick Brown (21:59.48) Mmm. Anita (22:14.702) a very sort of small tip on the end of it, which is a Caucasian nose, you know, like that isn't necessarily a characteristic of other ethnicities. so you are then putting those characteristics on non-Caucasian faces. Yeah. And then it becomes the norm. it's, yeah, I think it's, once you start to impick these things, it becomes quite scary. And it's, it's almost quite, it's like, yeah, I don't know. It's, really terrifying actually. And it is quite like, Bridgett Burrick Brown (22:17.528) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Bridgett Burrick Brown (22:27.992) And then you're reinforcing the VDI too. Anita (22:43.502) that film The Substance in so many ways. I think that hit home with so many people because we can all relate to that and just be like, oh my God, I might take The Substance. You can feel yourself being compelled to think, would I do that? Yeah, I probably would. Would I take that pill that says, you take this, it will make you beautiful. Bridgett Burrick Brown (22:46.09) Yeah, that was wild. Bridgett Burrick Brown (22:54.359) Yeah. Bridgett Burrick Brown (22:58.668) Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Bridgett Burrick Brown (23:05.525) Well, I think that's why there's so many people taking Ozempic. It's so easy to get and people are just like, I guess I'll just do it. And then it's like a slippery slope, which is a whole other conversation. Anita (23:16.065) Yeah. Anita (23:20.074) Yeah, yeah, the Azempic thing's really tricky. I think it's quite, it's really laid because there are lots of people who struggle with their weight who, I guess for them it's been a godsend. Amazing. Bridgett Burrick Brown (23:26.914) Totally, absolutely. Yeah, yeah. No, I feel like I'm referring more to the people that don't need it at all really. It's those people that I'm seeing a lot of recently just in like friend circles and such. Yeah. Or I'm like, ooh, you were already a size four. Now you're like a size zero, whoa, you know? But they can get it and they can afford it. So they're gonna Anita (23:35.03) Yeah. Yeah. Anita (23:44.074) Interesting. It's not. Anita (23:55.874) Well, that's the other issue, right? Being able to afford it because then you're reinforcing what rich and poor looks like, essentially. And then that goes back to race and like, it's just this crazy. Bridgett Burrick Brown (23:57.772) Mm-hmm. Bridgett Burrick Brown (24:03.106) Mm-hmm. Yep. Bridgett Burrick Brown (24:08.542) It's all related. So I was actually, my next question for you was, you know, the beauty industry profits from us making us feel like we need to fix ourselves as we just spoke about. But how do we, I guess, start recognizing this and then rejecting this conditioning, which I know is a lot, but I mean, Yeah, I guess here, I'll let you go. What do you think about that one? That's a big question too. Anita (24:41.519) Yeah, this... Do you know what? It's a really big question and it's something I get asked a lot because people... say to me, well, you still write about beauty products and you still put beauty products on your Instagram and stuff like that. And yeah, I absolutely do because there is a lot of joy to be had with beauty. know, like, know, fragrance in particular is so much fun. It's really lovely wearing makeup that you love or doing something with your hair, you know, whatever that makes you feel good. Bridgett Burrick Brown (24:55.874) Yeah. huh. I agree. Bridgett Burrick Brown (25:09.112) was gonna message you and be like, should we wear our red lips? Because I love a red lip too, and I know you love a red lip. Anita (25:13.326) Oh my God, I love a red. I do, I do. And I think there is so much joy to be had from beauty. But I think that joy has been taken away from us from all of those different forces that we've talked about, know, the patriarchy and the white supremacy and capitalism has taken that from us, particularly now because there is so much on offer and things are screaming for our attention. And everyone wants us to buy everything they're selling. And it does take the joy out of things because actually Bridgett Burrick Brown (25:22.636) Mm-hmm. Bridgett Burrick Brown (25:31.243) Yeah. Anita (25:43.058) I always go back to that when I first tried that first like green mascara when I was like 10. And I just thought it was silly and fun and I just like the colour and I just remember thinking, my god, this is the feeling we should have around makeup. And obviously over the years I lost that because I got more and more sucked into the standards of beauty and etc. yeah, and I definitely think like the most joyful place to be in with beauty is to see it as a lovely optional addition. Bridgett Burrick Brown (25:50.04) Yeah. Bridgett Burrick Brown (25:54.21) Yeah. Bridgett Burrick Brown (26:01.218) that you like needed it more than you just wanted to have fun with it. Anita (26:12.62) to your life if you want it, but for it not to be forced on people and for it to feel fun and enjoyable. And that is something I talk about in the book because it can read, think, I even see it every now and then in myself. I feel it creep up on myself where I am putting my makeup on and I'm like, I need to just like cover that dark circle or, you know, I need to do this. When actually, if you reframe that and look at beauty from a joyful place, it's like, okay, how am I feeling today? Do you know what? I really want to wear bright pink lipstick. Bridgett Burrick Brown (26:13.671) Hmm. Mm-hmm. Bridgett Burrick Brown (26:31.736) Mmm. Anita (26:42.082) because, I don't know, this is a really rogue example, but I'm really obsessed with Kathleen Hanna from Bikini Kill and she always wears like this bright pink lipstick. And I just read her book and the next day I was like, do you know what, I'm gonna wear my pink lipstick like Kathleen Hanna and pretend that I'm a really cool riot girl. So I did that and it was really fun and I just thought, this is how beauty is meant to be. It's meant to be fun, it's meant to be playful, we're meant to enjoy it and it's not meant to be armor or a mask or hide anything, it's meant to celebrate us. And I just wish the beauty industry. Bridgett Burrick Brown (26:53.218) Yeah. Bridgett Burrick Brown (27:00.728) Mm-hmm. Bridgett Burrick Brown (27:04.897) Yeah. Anita (27:12.556) would embrace that more. And I think it would make so many of us so much happier in our own selves. And I think those industries still think that we buy products from a place of anxiety, when I think that so many people would still buy things from a place of empowerment and joy and you know, just hope in enjoying the product rather than it changing how you look. Bridgett Burrick Brown (27:14.392) Mm-hmm. Bridgett Burrick Brown (27:27.298) Hmm. Bridgett Burrick Brown (27:33.697) Yeah. Bridgett Burrick Brown (27:39.468) Yeah, maybe that as consumers is sort of where we could take our pause to. Is this making me feel joy or is this making me feel fear? Am I feeling like I need to fix something or am I feeling like this could be like a fun extra bonus to my life or my beauty routine, right? I think I always say like, You know, it's like a teeter totter. Like you can have fun. Like I love to blow dry my hair, put on some makeup or wear a cute top or put on a red lipstick. But if I'm ever falling into like, oh God, I like need to go see my dermatologist or I, I need to, you know, I need to lose weight or then I'm like, okay, take a pause. You know, am I seeing a lot of ads that are like telling me I need to fix something or like what's going on? Like did something trigger me? Um, yeah. Anita (28:06.99) you Anita (28:34.606) Bye. Bridgett Burrick Brown (28:35.309) I like really bringing the joy into it. Anita (28:38.766) Yeah, I think that is, guess, my biggest tip for everyone listening is to just try and find that joy in beauty again. And I do quite often think we can find the keys to that joy in our own history and our own past. And like, and it might just be like a time, I don't know, if you look back to like your teenage years and actually you really loved, I don't know, I always used to wear really, really thick black goth eyeliner. And then sometimes it's like bringing those elements of yourself back and Bridgett Burrick Brown (28:52.248) Hmm. Bridgett Burrick Brown (29:00.941) Mm-hmm. Bridgett Burrick Brown (29:06.763) I love that. Anita (29:07.53) and experimenting and having fun. But yeah, that's, that is, I think, the most joyful and most balanced place you can be with beauty. And obviously you can reject beauty completely, but I just think realistically, there is joy we can have from it. We just need to take ownership of it and not let it define us. Bridgett Burrick Brown (29:14.284) Mm-hmm. Bridgett Burrick Brown (29:23.094) Yeah, make it almost like dressing or a part of your style, a part of like what makes you unique. I used to wrap my hair really high. I'm like, should I bring that back? No, I don't think so. I mean, maybe, who knows, right? Anita (29:36.8) mean, give it a go. mean... Bridgett Burrick Brown (29:42.604) wake my mom up before high school because she was a hairdresser and I'd be like, I'd give her the rat tail and she'd be like, she would never get up with me. And she'd be like ratty in my hair and she'd like, this isn't dry. So I would like never dry it all the way. I'm like, just just do it. Just do it. Make it look good. okay. What are some let's see. Hold on. Anita (29:46.851) wow. You Anita (29:57.07) I love that. Bridgett Burrick Brown (30:09.944) This is also a big question. I a lot of big questions for you. I only have a couple more there. Don't worry. We're not going to talk forever. I try not to talk forever. then I'm like, I just have more questions though. Okay. What are some common misconceptions about diversity and inclusion in the beauty industry? Anita (30:30.421) Yes, this is such an interesting question. Yeah, yeah, I don't understand why so many brands, like, you know, even outside of beauty find diversity, inclusivity, why they find it so hard, because it seems so obvious to me. I think the biggest issue within the beauty industry is just the lack of Bridgett Burrick Brown (30:32.522) All of them. I'm just kidding. Bridgett Burrick Brown (30:45.442) Mm-hmm. Anita (30:53.55) diversity within the diversity. So you just see so many brands. is, you know, there is like, it's going back to this now. I sort of feel like we're going backwards a bit to be honest, but there is, you know, if there is a person of color, a couple of people of color in a campaign, so there's like a group shot, you know, they, they still have a proximity to the, to a white beauty standard in some way in that they're quite often light skinned or, you know, they have features that Bridgett Burrick Brown (30:56.746) Yes, totally. Bridgett Burrick Brown (31:16.761) yeah. Anita (31:20.798) have a more Caucasian look or you know there is always something whereas Bridgett Burrick Brown (31:26.52) I feel like if you made them white, they would look like a white person a lot of the time. Anita (31:30.23) Yeah, yeah, this is always this has been a long standing criticism. But yeah, this is still what is happening. And it would be so nice to see something outside of that. And even within, you know, and this is like, I think ageism is a massive part of the beauty industry and something it really needs to readdress, but it doesn't because it makes so much money out of making women feel old and ugly and unattractive. So it doesn't it doesn't do that. But it does. It does on a surface level. This is my real bugbear. Bridgett Burrick Brown (31:36.844) Mm-hmm. Bridgett Burrick Brown (31:45.058) Mm-hmm. Bridgett Burrick Brown (31:53.388) Yep. Yep. Mm-hmm. Anita (32:00.36) but even within that, you know, when you see an older woman in a beauty campaign, she is always a former, you know, model and she's always really slim and she's got lovely thick, long white hair and like, she always looks the same and cool, great for you. But you know what, that's not what aging looks like to lots of other people, different ethnicities. Like you so rarely see, I don't know, I mean, you, basically never see South Asian people. I'm South Asian. You never see South Asian people in any campaigns, but you never see. Bridgett Burrick Brown (32:14.988) Yeah. Bridgett Burrick Brown (32:27.096) Mm-mm. Mm-mm. Anita (32:30.05) you know, anyone who looks different getting older, there is one way to get older and that still is, is, is sort of pertains to what the male gaze finds attractive. Bridgett Burrick Brown (32:33.675) Yeah. Bridgett Burrick Brown (32:42.154) Yeah. Do you think if you growing up, hold on, do you think growing up if you would have seen more advertisements with people that looked like you in them, do you feel like you would have felt like you were enough? Anita (33:04.784) Yeah, I think it would have really changed everything for me because the teen magazines I used to read never had any people of colour in them and I think it would have made a huge difference. It would have made me feel like I was acceptable and you even just recently I realised that I was not using Bridgett Burrick Brown (33:12.696) Yeah. Anita (33:25.078) I was using the wrong color lip liner and I had been, but you know, I'm 14 now, but so I have been doing for a really long time because I wasn't using a brown lip liner because the teen magazines I read when I was younger were always like, your lips should be as pink as possible. You know, and my, lips are two tones and they're, you know, they're sort of brown and pink. And I realized I was like, my God, I've got this like, almost this like colonized beauty mindset. I've still, even with all the work I've done, I'm still Bridgett Burrick Brown (33:39.811) wow. Bridgett Burrick Brown (33:51.123) Yes. Yeah. Anita (33:52.812) I'm still doing that. And I could like almost trace that back to when I first remember, I remember seeing that in a magazine and it stuck with me ever since. And you know, there are all these things. I think if I had heard in a magazine, you know, you can, if you've, if you've got darker lips, which are just as beautiful, use this dark brown lip liner. And yeah, things like that makes such a big difference. And I think it would have really changed my life. Bridgett Burrick Brown (34:14.072) Mm-hmm. Anita (34:17.774) This is the only flip side of social media that I think is good in that some ways you can see lots of different people who might look like you. Whether younger people who are really open to being influenced, whether they see those things in the right way, I don't know. But yeah, there are the options, hopefully. I just don't know if they get to see them. Bridgett Burrick Brown (34:36.565) huh. Yeah. More social media than like advertising and magazines, I would say. Don't you think? Yeah. So how do you find, I think you sort of answered this, but like how do you find balance in your beauty while staying authentic to yourself? I feel like you're just authentic to yourself though. Anita (34:45.846) Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Anita (35:03.932) Yeah, yeah, I mean it can be really hard, know, like anyone I can be influenced by things. I definitely remember a point when I was working on magazines and everyone was kind of the same and I don't want to do them a disservice because they're all lovely but you know sort of had similar educations they were all right they were all like you know a certain socio-economic sort of status I guess. And I remember that they all like had the same bag and like I've never been one to really follow a trend. I've always kind of marched my own beat a bit. And I remember thinking, I need to get that bag and I bought it. And I remember thinking, this is not very me. This is not a me bag. This is not very goth. And and I yeah, you know, and that can happen to anyone like that can happen to all of us. And I think it is just worth remembering who you are, what you like and the way to do that. Bridgett Burrick Brown (35:35.608) Mm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. my god, you, love it. Bridgett Burrick Brown (35:53.816) Mm-hmm. Anita (35:56.43) particularly if you're someone who likes shopping, I'm quite impulsive, I've got ADHD as well, I, you know, like buying things is kind of, I have to really watch myself, that's one of my addictions. You know, it's to put a bit of distance and a bit of a breaker in those things, so I don't know if you see something and you're like, that's going to change my life, or I think that face cream is going to make me feel pretty, or I think it's going to do this, or whatever it is, it's just put a breaker on it. And so one of the things I use is Bridgett Burrick Brown (36:04.29) Totally. Anita (36:26.688) is to kind of put those things in a list and then go back to them at the end of the month. And then I'm like, right, okay, if I really want that, I can get this now. If it's something really big, if it's something like a really expensive face gadget, or it's, I don't know, a tweakment of some kind, then I would put even more space in it and drill down as to why you really want that. And that's not to say that it's bad in any way, but it's just to go, actually, why do I want this? know, do I, am I feeling rubbish about something in my life? Am I just like not having a great time right now? And I think that Bridgett Burrick Brown (36:45.432) you Anita (36:56.352) changing this part of my experience, my appearance is going to fix everything. And I think, I think a lot of people do that. I do that. I think, yeah, we Bridgett Burrick Brown (37:00.087) Yep. That's the pause. That's what I always say too. I'm like, take a pause because there could be something else that's actually just making you hyper-focus on your body or your beauty. That it's not really about that. So I love that. Just take like a pause, put it in the cart. Yeah. Take a break. Anita (37:06.967) Yeah. Anita (37:16.32) Yeah. Yeah. Put a bit of a breaker in it. And also ask, like, kind of just prove yourself and ask why you think you want that. And I've got an exercise in the book that kind of drills this down. You can use it for lots of different things, but it's just asking yourself these questions like, why do I really want that? You know, is it because I think I look tired? And then it's going, OK, so if I think I look tired, am I actually just really tired? Do I just need to sleep? Why do I think I look tired? it because I've watched, I don't know, I've spent 10 hours on TikTok this week and it's fed me loads of really, really young faces and you know, whatever. And now I don't feel great about myself. Am I just having a rubbish time and now I'm focusing on myself? Just drill down into that. And then if you still want it in like a month, a couple of months, whatever it happens to be, cool, knock yourself out, but put that pause in there and take that control back and then go at these things from an empowered place. Bridgett Burrick Brown (37:56.62) Yeah. Bridgett Burrick Brown (38:05.784) Yep. Yeah. Anita (38:14.026) And when you do that as well, know, particularly with things like tweakments, you're better able to discern whether the person who is doing that treatment is, is doing you a service or a disservice, because something I have definitely noticed, and this has happened to me several times, is that you, people will try and upsell you. If you go in and you know, you sort of say, yeah, I don't know if I really want this. You will quite often come out with like loads of, loads of different things that you didn't want because it is an industry. Bridgett Burrick Brown (38:40.632) Totally. Anita (38:42.09) And it's not a lot of these, a lot of the aesthetic doctors, they're great at what they do, but they come from a medical background. I think everyone thinks of their doctors, so they'll make me feel better. you know, there's that link to, to healing. That is not always the case in aesthetics. That is not the root of aesthetics. The root of aesthetics is to perfect and change how people look to fit in with a beauty standard. And that is driven by money, patriarchy, capitalism, supremacy, cetera, all the things that we've talked about, but that is an industry and you've Bridgett Burrick Brown (38:52.856) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Bridgett Burrick Brown (39:02.977) Yep. Bridgett Burrick Brown (39:08.449) Yep, yep. Anita (39:10.094) got to remember that that is an industry that has been created to make money from us. You know, have all the things you want, but just put that breaker in. And again, you know, treatments and stuff are so popular. I haven't had any, but I'm not saying I wouldn't in the future, but anyone who tries to upsell you, anyone who points out any flaws in the way you look, which I can't tell you even as professional, that's happened to me so many times. I always remember going into a very famous, well-known Bridgett Burrick Brown (39:12.204) Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Bridgett Burrick Brown (39:24.568) Mm-hmm. Bridgett Burrick Brown (39:30.626) I hate that. Anita (39:37.27) Aesthetics doctors clinic and it was just as part of a sort of a beauty trip I was on and he said okay, so what do you want? And I said, I don't want anything I'm just here to talk to you maybe interview you find out some things and he was like, no What do you want? And then he started to point out he was really taken aback by the fact I didn't want anything and like almost slightly insulted and I could see that switch in him and he was like, okay Your profile doesn't look right if we put a bit of filler here that would look better Then if you put a filler on the bridge of your nose, that would be straighter and I just thought wow if I was someone Bridgett Burrick Brown (40:00.342) Yeah. Bridgett Burrick Brown (40:06.104) Whoa. Anita (40:07.182) who wasn't, you know, was feeling rubbish about myself or was having a hard time or didn't know better, I would have totally done all of that. And even after that appointment, I remember walking past mirrors in this hotel I was in thinking, oh my God, maybe I would look better with a bit of filler there. And you've just got to remember that that's it. That is, yeah. Yeah, you've got to be really careful. Bridgett Burrick Brown (40:21.75) Yeah. The seed has been planted. You got to throw the seed away. Yeah. I love how you said whether you choose to buy the cream or do the procedure, going like doing it in a place of empowerment. I think that's really important because then you'll feel good about it. I always say beauty is how you feel. And going back to your Anita (40:44.567) Yeah. Bridgett Burrick Brown (40:52.088) comment about, know, do I need the eye cream because I look tired or am I actually tired and I need sleep? Because sometimes if I'm if I'm tired, I don't feel pretty at all. You know, I can be like a disaster, you know, but as soon as I get a good night's sleep, I can wake up and be like, OK, I'm feeling myself. You know, it's such it's really comes from within to. Anita (41:00.246) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's like, how well am I actually looking after myself? Is this beauty product a quick fix for that? Actually, should I be prioritizing my health and my sleep or, you whatever it is, my hydration, actually, because sometimes I completely forget to drink water throughout the day. Bridgett Burrick Brown (41:28.874) Yeah, you should, ugh, can't talk. Anita (41:28.878) And then I get to the end of the day and I'm like, literally like shriveled. Yeah, I mean, I've actually done that today. you but then you look at yourself and you're like, oh, I might don't look right. And I look a bit dry and I look a bit this and that's quite often what it is. We neglect some part of our essential self care. Bridgett Burrick Brown (41:41.176) Mm-hmm. Bridgett Burrick Brown (41:45.622) Yeah, or you just emotionally, it's like emotionally, you just need to go to bed and like get out of the mirror, you know? I always say like step away from the mirrors. Okay, so after years of dissecting beauty culture and researching it and working in it, how do you personally define beauty now? Anita (41:48.172) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, get off the internet. Get on. Yeah. Anita (42:10.838) Yeah, that's such an interesting one. I don't think I've ever been asked that actually. So yeah, congrats. I think I define beauty now as just feeling, I guess it's self-expression. I still think beauty is about self-expression and that isn't always wearing like crazy makeup or whatever. Although if you do, I'm all about that. But it can almost be Bridgett Burrick Brown (42:27.864) Mmm. Bridgett Burrick Brown (42:36.972) Yeah, yeah. Anita (42:41.13) It's almost just the joy that you get from products and the joy you can get from either like applying those products. I actually find that quite mindful. Like I find putting makeup on quite mindful. I find it pleasurable experience, but also like the smell of things and the textures of things and just getting as much joy from it as you can and slowing it all down. And yeah, I think for me beauty is self-expression and joy, but only if we keep, yeah, authenticity. Yeah. Yeah. But I think it's only those things if we... Bridgett Burrick Brown (42:55.714) Mmm. Bridgett Burrick Brown (43:03.862) Yeah, and like authenticity maybe. Anita (43:10.988) We know that they are optional, we know they are fun, and they don't define us in any way. And they're not essentials in that way. They're lovely accoutrements to the rest of our lives and to all the other parts of us that aren't our appearance. Bridgett Burrick Brown (43:14.146) Mm-hmm. Bridgett Burrick Brown (43:23.992) Yeah. We don't need them, they don't need to fix us, but they enhance us and give us joy. I love that, that's cool. Anything else that I missed or anything else you wanna sort of end with? Anita (43:31.5) Yeah, absolutely. Anita (43:39.406) Not that I can think of. I guess if people are listening and want to know more about me, you can find me. Are we going to do that in a bit? Yeah. Bridgett Burrick Brown (43:47.718) for sure. We're going to. Yeah. Well, we could do that now. Yeah, I want you to tell us a little bit about your substack, the powder room, and then obviously your book ugly and then where everybody can find you so they can stalk you. It's getting. Wait, pause for one second. Go like this with your earbuds. All of a sudden they sound funky. Talk again. Yeah, I think that's better. OK, good. Anita (44:00.221) Yeah Anita (44:03.886) Absolutely. I mean. Anita (44:12.482) Did I move them? Is that okay? Yeah, better. Yeah, so you, what was I saying? Bridgett Burrick Brown (44:22.156) so okay. So tell me about your substack, the powder room, your book, ugly, anything else where people can find you. Anita (44:28.364) Yeah. So I started my sub stack, The Powder Room, just as a place to, I guess, jump all these thoughts I have about beauty culture and all the things I see. So you can expect essays from me about interesting parts of beauty culture. They're quite often reality TV related because I have to admit I watch a huge amount of reality TV. I just love it. I know I shouldn't, but I really love it. I know it's great. just, yeah, I love it. Bridgett Burrick Brown (44:51.096) I love it. It's just so entertaining. Anita (44:57.902) But it also, I mean, it throws up really interesting parts of human behavior. I think that's why I like it. You can see the psychology behind things and you can see the different mechanisms and systems of oppression like acting out. And that's why I found it fascinating. So I talk about beauty culture within the powder room, but I also do a sort of monthly-ish recommendation about the best products that I think are great in a particular category. And it's almost like a no BS. Bridgett Burrick Brown (45:10.732) Yeah. Anita (45:26.978) guide to, don't know, so I did one on, I tried like tons and tons of at home hair dyes to find the best ones and that one seems to be really, really popular because actually, you know, people do buy, I quite often dye my hair at home because it's just easy and it's quick and it's cheap and you know, there's lots of like, I guess, yeah, no BS guides to beauty that people find really useful so I do those. Bridgett Burrick Brown (45:33.985) So cool. Bridgett Burrick Brown (45:40.012) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Bridgett Burrick Brown (45:50.85) Super cool. Anita (45:52.27) And yeah, there's a of a mix of things on there. I'm also a bit of a sort of amateur beauty historian. So there's a lot of really quirky, weird, interesting beauty history stuff on there as well. So it's a bit of a mix. And then all of that stuff is also similar to my Instagram, which is quite often about the history of beauty and the culture of beauty and also occasional product recommendations and stuff too. So you can find me in lots of different places. If anyone's got any questions, they can always drop me a line. Bridgett Burrick Brown (46:11.125) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Bridgett Burrick Brown (46:18.552) It's so fun because there's education and research and dissecting the backgrounds of people, but then you get recommendations for beauty products. I'm like, love this. Anita (46:29.996) Yeah, I know. It is an interesting mix. Initially, didn't. Yeah, initially, I was like, I don't know what I want this space to be on Substack. people do still ask me a lot for beauty product recommendations. And I'm in a good place to give those because I've been in the industry a long time and I can see through the BS and I'm like, this is not great. This is just got celebrity fronting it. So actually, yeah, it is an interesting part of what I do. So yeah. Bridgett Burrick Brown (46:45.816) Totally. Bridgett Burrick Brown (46:50.625) Yeah. Bridgett Burrick Brown (46:54.924) Yeah, that's really cool. And then you have your book Ugly that they can get everywhere, right? And you're on Audible because that's how I listen to your book. Anita (46:59.426) Yes. Yes, yeah, you- Yeah, I'm on Spotify. I've just been sort of highlighted as one of the books to listen to on Spotify so you can get that as part of your different subscriptions. So yeah, it's available in lots of different formats. So yeah. Bridgett Burrick Brown (47:14.198) Amazing. Bridgett Burrick Brown (47:19.394) Cool. And we'll list all this stuff. Thank you so much. This was such a wonderful conversation. And yeah, I learned a lot and I just love your perspective and nice to meet you. Anita (47:32.3) You too, it's been so fun. No worries. Yeah, absolutely, definitely. Yes. Bye. Bridgett Burrick Brown (47:34.196) Yeah, thank you. I will see you online. Right? Okay, bye. You don't have to go. Anita (47:44.353) Okay.