Bridgett Burrick Brown (00:03.253) Hello everybody, welcome back. I am your host Bridget Burrick Brown and this is the Beyond Beauty Project, the podcast. Today I am here with Dr. Morgan Francis, a doctor of clinical psychology and mental health therapist. She is the founder of Scottsdale Premier Counseling in Arizona. With over 20 years experience specializing in body image and eating disorders, she is committed to breaking the stigma surrounding mental health. She uses a compassionate approach to help clients address past traumas, current stressors, and future fears that hinder personal growth. A recognized expert, Dr. Francis serves as the mental health expert for 12 News Arizona's Wellness Wednesdays and is a frequent guest on Fox News. Named a Lululemon female leader in 2019 for her work in body image. She continues to advocate for mental wellbeing through public speaking, online courses, and webinars. Dr. Francis lives in Scottsdale, Arizona with her husband and three children. I discovered Dr. Francis on Instagram and she quickly became one of my favorite accounts to follow regarding body image. And I am just super excited to dive in today. Thank you so much for being here. Morgan Francis (01:30.44) Aw, thank you so much for having me. I'm such a huge fan of yours as well, and I'm really looking forward to our conversation today. Bridgett Burrick Brown (01:37.607) Me too. I feel like I just love Instagram for the fact that you just find these gems. like I said before we jumped on, I'm like, I feel like we're already friends. I'm like, we can finally chat about all this stuff that we post. And so I'm really curious to start just to know what inspired you to specialize in body image and disordered eating. Morgan Francis (01:53.335) Yes. Bridgett Burrick Brown (02:05.089) Was there like a pivotal moment in your life? Morgan Francis (02:09.654) Yeah, you know, so like many people, I struggled with my body image from quite a young age and, you know, was a chronic dieter, was really good at finding the latest fat diet and trying to lose weight and being so miserable. And I remember being in college and I got to a point in my life where all I could think about is what am I going to eat and how am I going to get rid of it? I mean, I could be having sex and I would be thinking about this. So it just took over my life and I felt like I was in such a prison. And then I don't know whose website it is and I wish I could remember or find it because I would send this person a huge thank you letter because I remember her website saying, you can love your body right now as it is. And that was so radical to me because I was like, no, I can't love my body. Bridgett Burrick Brown (02:37.091) yeah. Morgan Francis (03:03.914) ever, or at least until I've lost the weight, or I look like the woman on Shape magazine, or I follow the diet and Cosmo or whatever it was that I was, you know, taking in. And so to love my body as it is was really radical, but it definitely shifted something in my, in my thought process around my body image. And then from there, I just started to really dive into research and educate myself and and understanding the history around diet culture and then just finding a way to take my life back because I felt I had no control over my life when I was in my eating disorder. And then simultaneously, I'm getting my doctorate in clinical psychology. So I actually didn't really work with women until 2017. I actually worked a lot with men. Bridgett Burrick Brown (03:43.369) Yeah. Morgan Francis (03:57.59) in my earlier years of my private practice and their body was more around their sexual health than it was about food. It wasn't that we didn't talk about food, but it was much more around their sexual health. And then when I left that practice, I then really immersed myself primarily with body image eating disorder, specifically with young adults, athletes, women. And now I have a nice mixture. see, you know, Bridgett Burrick Brown (04:01.153) interesting. Morgan Francis (04:26.166) young adults, but I also see men going through a lot of different situations and women going through menopause. So now I kind of have a full range. Bridgett Burrick Brown (04:34.497) Mm hmm. Yeah. Do you see in hindsight sort of where that obsession with your body came from? Morgan Francis (04:46.685) yeah. I'm still at my own therapy. Bridgett Burrick Brown (04:47.999) Yeah, like, can you break it down? Yeah, totally. Do want to share some of that? Morgan Francis (04:52.806) Yeah. So a lot of it was the messaging. So messaging from my parents, messaging from, men, you know, I was something to be looked at. was something to be admired. I was an object. I was meant to appeal to the male, gaze. you know, even with being an athlete. Bridgett Burrick Brown (05:05.153) Mm. Morgan Francis (05:19.278) It was made very aware that I needed to cut my weight in order to be faster, in order to be stronger. Also, don't get too bulky in your legs because men don't like thick legs. I mean, so many comments throughout my life that I was subjected to, you know, put on diets at a very early age. You know, my mom is an amazing woman, but... She was a victim to diet culture as well. So seeing her path and she was very kind about the way that I looked, had opinions, but wasn't mean. I know for some of my clients, I hear such abusive, emotionally abusive things that they've experienced from their mothers. My mom was mean to herself and so really hard on herself and really struggled with her own weight, shape and body image. So. Bridgett Burrick Brown (05:50.005) Yeah. Bridgett Burrick Brown (06:07.423) Yeah. Morgan Francis (06:15.148) That's why I often talk about with parents, it's you can tell your daughter till you are blue in the face how beautiful she is, but children learn through social modeling, monkeys see monkey do. So I see mom really unhappy and miserable with the way that she looks. And yet I'm told that I look like her. You can see how confusing this is for a child. And then on top of it was all, back then it wasn't social media, it was magazines. Bridgett Burrick Brown (06:27.283) Yeah. Bridgett Burrick Brown (06:38.645) Yes, absolutely. Morgan Francis (06:44.878) I mean, I had a subscription to every single magazine under the sun and I would follow every single diet. I would look to see what those girls were eating, not eating, follow it. Um, every fat diet did. And I w was just the nineties. I mean, I was a product up to the nineties and I watched, you know, his next top model and all the things. So definitely those influenced the way that I experienced my body. Um, and then, you know, also some personal relationships were Bridgett Burrick Brown (06:48.353) Mm-hmm. Bridgett Burrick Brown (06:55.84) Yep. Morgan Francis (07:13.654) I was in abusive relationships and men felt it was perfectly okay to do horrible things to my psychology and how I felt about myself. So, you know, there was a lot of layers to it and thank goodness for therapy and getting through it. that's why I always share my story too, because being a therapist, I've been on the couch, I know what it's like. And I think it's people to recognize that there is hope and there is a light at the end of the tunnel. Bridgett Burrick Brown (07:24.373) Yeah. Bridgett Burrick Brown (07:29.791) Mm-hmm. Bridgett Burrick Brown (07:37.204) Yeah. Bridgett Burrick Brown (07:43.079) Yeah, thank you for sharing that. I have to think that that makes you such a better therapist because you have all that experience along with your education, you know. How does perfectionism play a role in body image struggles and disordered eating, I would say? Morgan Francis (07:50.819) Mm-hmm. Morgan Francis (08:04.482) Well, it can show up in a lot of different ways. you we know that, diagnostically that perfectionism is very much correlated with obsessive compulsive disorder, also correlated with anorexia nervosa, specifically that eating disorder. I'm not as familiar with ARFID, so I don't want to pretend I'm an expert in that area when I'm not. but we definitely see some correlation. So, you know, there is a tendency for people that Bridgett Burrick Brown (08:21.889) Mm-hmm. Morgan Francis (08:32.174) are seen as like type A or perfectionistic to engage in behaviors that are very obsessive and compulsive because it stays within that. But then in general, have body image in and of itself. And I often make clear that just because you struggle with your body image doesn't mean that you have or you meet the criteria for an eating disorder. So that stated, but you can have, if you have an eating disorder, there's a strong likelihood that you're struggling with a negative body image. Bridgett Burrick Brown (08:39.457) Mmm. Bridgett Burrick Brown (08:53.835) Okay. Morgan Francis (09:01.75) Right? So does that make sense? Bridgett Burrick Brown (09:02.677) Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Morgan Francis (09:05.217) So with body image, that is the strive. It is for perfection, right? And that perfection is in the eye of the beholder, right? Because it's subjective, right? So it's what I tell myself. It's my attitudes, my beliefs, my feelings, my behaviors around my body shape and appearance. So what may be perfect for you may show up differently for me. So when I am working with someone, I am exploring, you know, what are your thoughts? What are your feelings? What are your attitudes? What are you doing? with regards to your body shape. And there is a strive for perfectionism, which we all know is completely unobtainable, right? That is hamster on the wheel. You know, we're constantly striving to look and to get and obtain this perfection that diet culture has spit out to us through capitalism. And if we don't meet that standard, which is impossible to meet, then we think to ourselves, well, if I only had more willpower, right? I'm not hard enough. Bridgett Burrick Brown (09:41.674) Yeah. Bridgett Burrick Brown (09:59.071) Yeah, yeah. Morgan Francis (10:00.588) and I'm a failure because I don't meet what die culture is telling me that I need to meet. Bridgett Burrick Brown (10:06.091) Do you think diet culture has gotten worse since the 90s? grew up, I was a, like I really got affected by the diet culture in the 90s as well. Do you think it's worse now or it's gotten better or it's just different? Morgan Francis (10:21.838) So if we're looking from a social psychology lens, I would say it's worse because it's in our hands, because it's in our hands. So from a social psychology perspective, we look at it, the proximity, right? So the closer that the stimulus is, the more impact, the greater the impact it can have on us. or the greater the impact it can have on us. if, since diaculture now can just show up in the palm of my hand because it's in my phone, and then with the... Bridgett Burrick Brown (10:27.446) Mmm. Bridgett Burrick Brown (10:41.484) yeah. Morgan Francis (10:51.148) the reels and you know, all the visualizations that could come along with it, right? Yes, I would say it's worse because it's more intense from a social psychology lens, absolutely, because before it was just coming through the mail, right? So I'd have to wait for my next issue. It was a monthly issue, right? I didn't really have access to the internet. It wasn't really on the internet. Now it's on the internet. It's available 24 seven. Bridgett Burrick Brown (11:00.097) You would say it's worse. Bridgett Burrick Brown (11:11.264) Yeah. Bridgett Burrick Brown (11:17.505) Do you think with the body positivity and like body diversity, do you think you don't think that's like combating it at all? Morgan Francis (11:26.326) I do think it's combating it, but it wasn't meant for women that look like you and me. Body positivity was for population that looks nothing like you and me. We have capitalized on it to make it work for people that look like you and me, but its origins are not meant for you and I. And so I'm cautious around body positivity. I think it's, for me as a clinician and also for me as just a person, Bridgett Burrick Brown (11:32.097) Hmm, yeah. Bridgett Burrick Brown (11:44.553) Yeah. Morgan Francis (11:53.87) I tend to be very cautious when using that terminology. I like body neutrality more because in my experience when I'm working with someone with an eating disorder, the idea of loving your body is so far-fetched. It's just not, I mean, I can't even get them to feed themselves, let alone love themselves. So it's much, much more, I think, clinically appropriate for me to talk about body neutrality. Bridgett Burrick Brown (11:59.903) Mm-hmm. Bridgett Burrick Brown (12:15.275) Yeah. Yeah. Morgan Francis (12:23.542) and to get them to where I don't want you thinking about your body. I just don't want, don't want you waking up and thinking about it because I, again, I know for myself and my own personal experience, it was constantly on my mind. It wasn't something that I ever escaped from. And so I work with trying to get them to not think about it and to live their life without, you know, worrying about what they're eating and how they're going to get rid of it. Bridgett Burrick Brown (12:23.615) Yeah. Bridgett Burrick Brown (12:28.181) Yeah. Bridgett Burrick Brown (12:50.491) Yeah. Can you explain where body positivity came from for the listeners? The real origin. Morgan Francis (12:56.802) Yeah, so body positivity, well, it is for marginalized groups. It is not for people that are white, Eurocentric, have, you know, I have thin privilege. Even at my heaviest, I would still be considered thin. So it doesn't come, it's not meant for privileged bodies. And I'm not seeing people that are thin don't struggle with body image. So, and I think that's really important to acknowledge too. Absolutely, people that are thin, Bridgett Burrick Brown (13:02.646) Yeah. Bridgett Burrick Brown (13:13.662) Yep. Morgan Francis (13:26.23) struggle with body image, it shows up vastly differently for individuals that exist in larger bodies. so body positivity was co-opted by white influencers and it was used by a lot of companies for their own capitalism and marketing. So I tried again, I wanna be sensitive to that and not always like use those terms to apply to myself and to my... Bridgett Burrick Brown (13:44.993) Mm-hmm. Bridgett Burrick Brown (13:49.803) Yeah. Morgan Francis (13:53.622) other, you know, to my clients and instead that's why I prefer to use body neutrality. Bridgett Burrick Brown (13:58.043) Yeah, I like that. Thank you for bringing that up. What are some of the most common body image struggles you see in younger children? Morgan Francis (14:11.98) Well... Bridgett Burrick Brown (14:12.169) or like signs, maybe signs that parents could look out for. Morgan Francis (14:17.922) You know, for, well, there's two ways of asking that or answering this. So for young girls, their bodies are changing. And that can be really hard because the changes can be really fast. The changes can evoke, again, comments from classmates, girls and boys, from teachers. Bridgett Burrick Brown (14:37.15) Yeah. Morgan Francis (14:46.926) coaches. And so that's a lot to take in for a girl whose body is changing and she has no control over how her body's changing, right? And then there's the parents that really feel that their child's weight is a reflection of their parenting. Bridgett Burrick Brown (14:54.209) Yeah. Morgan Francis (15:12.332) Right? So how my child looks is a reflection of me. Right? And so I've talked with a lot of parents who I don't want to have a fat kid. I don't want to have a fat daughter. And they have their own biases around fat phobia because of their own experiences within their body and what messages and experiences they went through. Bridgett Burrick Brown (15:12.734) Explain that. Bridgett Burrick Brown (15:18.838) Yeah. Bridgett Burrick Brown (15:40.18) Yeah. Morgan Francis (15:41.538) And then I have parents that are really trying to do the right thing and be very in tune to their, let's say their daughter's body and her behaviors around food. And so they are like so anxious, know, and so negative and they'll bring their daughter in. They're like, okay, fix her, just fix her, make sure she's okay. I don't want to eat disorder. And I'm like, Bridgett Burrick Brown (16:02.279) Yeah. Morgan Francis (16:11.594) okay, and I try to talk with the daughter through it. She's like, I'm good. I mean, I feel like I'm okay. And the other key piece is that disordered eating is so normalized in, know, cafeterias that it's really hard because what I would deem as disordered eating, they're like, well, that's a typical Wednesday for me. Right. So, so that's the other key piece. Bridgett Burrick Brown (16:34.654) wow. Wait, expand on that a little bit. Morgan Francis (16:40.238) So for example, like disordered eating are these rules or these guidelines that I as the person put into place for no other reason other than to try to maintain skinny or try to be thin, right? Because I'm fearful that I'm going to gain weight or get bloated, right? So these, right, bloated. That would be like a whole topic in of itself, right? Bridgett Burrick Brown (16:54.625) Mm. Bridgett Burrick Brown (17:01.739) Blow it in. Yeah. Totally. Everyone's always bloated. I'm like, you're not bloated. Morgan Francis (17:10.382) Right. No, exactly. So they'll say to themselves, I can't eat this food, or I can't pair these two foods together, or I'm only eating this. And they would say, well, that's just a typical thing I do on a Wednesday because on Wednesdays I don't eat dairy. it's now for, like I said, there's no reason they're not lactose intolerant. They just don't want to get bloated because Wednesday nights they have, let's say, volleyball. and they don't want to feel bloated and when they're wearing like these shorts or their uniform, right? they just don't bring a lunch to school or if they bring a lunch, they give it to everybody else. So, I mean, we think we're giving our kids their school lunches, but we really don't know if they're eating their school lunches. Bridgett Burrick Brown (17:41.96) wow. Bridgett Burrick Brown (17:49.643) Aww yeah. Bridgett Burrick Brown (17:57.035) Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Morgan Francis (17:58.734) So again, this disordered eating, even at home at nights, it's like, I've got homework to do. So we think of our kids being really super like focused on their studies and being committed to getting their 4.0. Well, no, they're skipping dinner every single day and they're in their room doing exercises like sit-ups. Bridgett Burrick Brown (18:14.389) Yeah. Bridgett Burrick Brown (18:19.539) Yeah. So those are some signs that parents can look out for. Morgan Francis (18:23.886) Yeah, so other signs would be taking a really strong interest in food. And this might be like, oh, well, my daughter loves to cook. Okay. But does she only eat the food that she cooks? Or is she open to eating out? Would she be able to go to Chipotle with you? Or no, she's not going to Chipotle anymore because she doesn't like these ingredients that all of a she saw on the internet that are fear of menagerie ingredients. Right. Bridgett Burrick Brown (18:40.704) Yeah. Bridgett Burrick Brown (18:52.233) Yeah. Morgan Francis (18:53.91) That's what I mean, like there's a strong interest in food all of a sudden and only food that she eats. There's a strong interest in grocery shopping, making sure only certain foods are in the home. There's a stronger interest in her overall appearance. Not that, of course we want people to feel proud of how they look and want to take care of themselves, but not to the detriment that it's interfering with their life, right? Their social. Bridgett Burrick Brown (19:08.929) Mm-hmm. Bridgett Burrick Brown (19:20.137) Yeah. Morgan Francis (19:21.034) academic life, their sports, their hobbies, their interests, their faith, right? So that's when we see what disruption in their life because they are taking so long to leave for school or they're taking so long to go out with their friends just to go hang out their friend's house because they're worried about how they look. That's a Bridgett Burrick Brown (19:26.858) Yeah. Bridgett Burrick Brown (19:42.003) Yeah. Yep. Changing their clothes a million times or too much body checking. Do you think when it comes to just Morgan Francis (19:47.65) Yes. Bridgett Burrick Brown (19:54.561) talking about bodies or talking about food in households, it almost should be kept to how we nourish our bodies and maybe we just don't make it a big deal. Do you think like people, parents make it almost too big of a deal because they're worried that they're almost talking about it too much? Yeah. Yeah. Morgan Francis (20:13.026) Yeah. Yeah. And we use the word health all the time. It's just as long as healthy, eat something healthy, get a healthy snack. It's like I've run through right now. I'm so over that word because I just so. Bridgett Burrick Brown (20:22.92) Mm-hmm, get a healthy snack. Bridgett Burrick Brown (20:28.821) Same. I talk about nourishing and like, you need protein because it's going to keep you fuller and you don't want to get hangry. there was a girl over the other day and they were having a cookie and it was right after dinner and she's like, she came back and grabbed another piece of broccoli. And she's like, well, I have to have a piece of broccoli because I'm having a cookie. And I was like, like to even think about that. at 10 is wild. My daughter would just feel like there's cookies now. Who cares about the broccoli? You know? Morgan Francis (21:06.606) Yeah, and I was the kid that was raised in a home where there were no cookies. There was no foods. There were no foods of sugar. If they were, they were like the snack well, know, know, 90 calories, you know, fat free, whatever, like all the stuff, you know. And so I was the kid that ended up going to my bestie's house and then going into her pantry and binging on all the fun foods. Bridgett Burrick Brown (21:12.341) Mmm. Bridgett Burrick Brown (21:21.205) Fet free. Bridgett Burrick Brown (21:32.545) Hmm. Morgan Francis (21:32.878) And my mom would be like, what are you doing? I'm like, I'm in heaven. There's actually sugar and fun foods. So it's interesting because I have three kids. we just have all foods available. We have fruit. We have veggies. We have cookies. We have chips. We have nuts. have goldfish. mean, anything and everything is packaged or convenient. It's in my house. Bridgett Burrick Brown (21:38.877) Yeah. Yeah. Morgan Francis (22:02.638) And there will be so many times I will say to my kids, do you want dessert? No, I'm good. Bridgett Burrick Brown (22:03.041) Hmm. Bridgett Burrick Brown (22:09.587) Interesting. Morgan Francis (22:10.83) mean, that would never happen with me in my home. I'd be like, yeah, when? Can I have seconds? Can I get more? It was just, it was this deprivation, right? And so when we make, I always say the most addictive food is the one you tell yourself you can't have. That is the most addictive food. And so our brains are hardwired to want what we tell that we can't have. So when we make it available, we take the novelty away. And so, Bridgett Burrick Brown (22:17.258) Huh. Bridgett Burrick Brown (22:27.723) Mm, yeah. Bridgett Burrick Brown (22:34.57) Yeah. Bridgett Burrick Brown (22:38.56) Yeah. Morgan Francis (22:39.2) It's not something that they feel they have to have. It's there if they want it and they don't have to have it if they don't want it. And so it's really, it becomes neutral. And so those foods are not fun foods. They're just, that's the cookie, that's the chips, that's the nuts, that's the pretzels. It's just there. Bridgett Burrick Brown (22:45.376) Yeah. Bridgett Burrick Brown (22:56.349) Yeah, yeah, I love that. Super cool. So many people struggle to trust their bodies after years of dieting or disordered eating. How can they rebuild that trust? And do you see, I know you use intuitive eating in your practice. Do you think that's a helpful tool in this process? Morgan Francis (23:18.478) do. I think intuitive eating can be very helpful. I think it's hard to follow the 10 principles, you know, always. I think it can come in and out of a person's life, but it definitely gives us like a guideline, right? And when we're working with someone who has experienced chronic dieting, often equate it to like having a really like, like dieting to me is like having a parent with you all the time. Meaning it's, it's telling us when to eat. Bridgett Burrick Brown (23:32.395) Yeah. Bridgett Burrick Brown (23:45.472) Mmm. Morgan Francis (23:47.832) how much to eat, what to eat, know, good or bad, like you gotta eat this at nine, you gotta eat this at not till noon, you gotta stop after seven, you can have four ounces of chicken, you can have six ounces of broccoli, you can have white rice, not brown, like, that's what I do for an infant. Like I'm literally putting, like a toddler, I'm putting his or her food and I'm deciding for them. And that is really what diets do, they decide for us. So, Bridgett Burrick Brown (23:52.257) if you're being good or bad. Bridgett Burrick Brown (24:16.255) Yeah, wow. Morgan Francis (24:17.462) Of course we don't trust our own judgment. Of course we don't trust our decision making. Of course we don't trust our physical hunger and our satiation because we're relying on an outside factor to tell us when we've had enough. Tell us that now is the time to eat. We don't talk with anything else. I don't allow someone to tell me when to go to the bathroom. I don't wait until noon to go to the bathroom. I don't stop after seven to not go to the bathroom. Bridgett Burrick Brown (24:32.383) Yeah. Bridgett Burrick Brown (24:40.481) Totally. Morgan Francis (24:47.182) I go to the bathroom when I have to go to the bathroom. And yet we don't question that, but we question our biological hunger. So when we put it into those terms and we normalize the body's experience of being hungry and full, then it starts, we're kind like, oh, that makes way more sense. So having that trust is giving yourself the ability to be the authority of your body, right? Bridgett Burrick Brown (24:51.926) Wow. Huh, yeah. Bridgett Burrick Brown (25:14.955) I love that. Morgan Francis (25:16.694) Yeah, and it's so important to say, okay, I've had enough, I'm good. Or, okay, I'm gonna wait and then maybe I'll have a little bit more later. Right? You get to choose that. And I think the biggest fear for that, for people is, well, I won't stop. Once I eat, I won't stop. And my response is, that could happen. And so what? You think you're never gonna stop when it's three in the morning from eating your Oreos? You're gonna stop. Bridgett Burrick Brown (25:25.897) Yeah. Bridgett Burrick Brown (25:33.505) Mm-hmm. Bridgett Burrick Brown (25:45.024) Yeah. Morgan Francis (25:46.062) your body to have what it's been craving. And it aside and it's amazing because my one of my clients, we were talking to their day and we were laughing because she's like, Remember how I was just like binging on Oreos and because I wasn't allowing myself to have the Oreos and I said, Yeah, it's because you told me eat the goddamn Oreos, just eat them. And you'll pay it you won't want them anymore. She goes. Bridgett Burrick Brown (25:48.737) Hmm. Bridgett Burrick Brown (26:09.055) Yeah. Morgan Francis (26:12.416) It just was like Morgan, this light bulb went off and I don't like I look at Oreos and I'm like, they're there. Okay, it's not a big deal anymore. Bridgett Burrick Brown (26:19.009) That's incredible. I love that story. Morgan Francis (26:21.526) Yeah, I know it was so good. Just laughed about it. But yeah, I think we just give give ourselves that unconditional permission, which is really what intuitive eating is about, right? Bridgett Burrick Brown (26:31.657) Yeah, explain intuitive eating quickly just for the listeners. Morgan Francis (26:37.324) Yeah, so intuitive eating is a a principle. There's 10 of them. And so it was developed by Evelyn Trable. And really, the premise was to make peace with food, to use food for what it is to satiate our hunger and understand our hunger and fullness cues, to be, you know, in tune with our emotions as well when we're eating, to minimize the distractions that we utilize when we're eating. and to really call out diet culture and to be able to move our bodies freely in a way that feels good. It doesn't mean you have to get on the stair mill. It could be like, I'm gonna go take a walk with my dog because that's what I wanna do and that's enough for today. So it really is, it's around finding that satisfaction factor. Satisfaction is a key word in intuitive eating. What do you find satisfying and getting really in touch with like your own palates. with what you like versus what you've been told you should eat today. And what sounds good to me and checking in with yourself and creating that self-awareness. Those are all principles of intuitive eating and I find it to be really effective. Bridgett Burrick Brown (27:36.415) Yep. Bridgett Burrick Brown (27:44.085) Mm-hmm. I love that. Yeah. Do you, what? Okay. Any advice on... children that only want to eat like pasta. So my daughter would live on pasta and french fries. So sometimes I'm like, oh, I'm like kind of like making her eat the chicken or the broccoli, but I'm like, she needs a little bit of broccoli and like a little bit of vegetables. And what would you say around that? So I'm like, I want her to be able to like choose, but I'm like, she would just eat all the Oreos and all the pasta. Morgan Francis (27:59.736) Yeah. Yeah. Morgan Francis (28:15.373) Good luck. Morgan Francis (28:20.908) Yeah, yeah, my son's the same way. I have a nine year old that loves his dino nuggets and bagel bites. That's really about it. I mean, there's not much variety. But you know what I think to myself, is he happy? Yeah. Does he get sick? No. Does he have regular poops? Yeah. Does he go to bed? Sleeps really well? Yeah. Is he nice to kids and he's doing well at school? Yeah. Bridgett Burrick Brown (28:32.203) Yeah. Bridgett Burrick Brown (28:43.018) Yeah. Bridgett Burrick Brown (28:50.421) Yeah, so you're just not worried about it. Morgan Francis (28:50.563) I I'm not concerned. I'm really not concerned. If he's a kid that's happy and thriving and has friends and he's kind to others and he's learning his ABCs and tying a shoe and wiping his butt, like, I think we're good. It's gonna happen. It's gonna come around and it's okay. And he'll take a multivitamin, one of those, I mean, we use the Flintstone ones back in the day. I'm sure, you my husband gives him some vitamin and he's fine. He's fine. Yeah. Bridgett Burrick Brown (29:04.022) Yeah. Like he's gonna eat his broccoli one day. Bridgett Burrick Brown (29:17.035) Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Wow. So you Yeah, I like this. You're like really chill about it. You're like eat the Oreos. Yeah, I like the like you almost like take the restriction completely off and let it neutralize. Like that's almost what I see you're doing. Morgan Francis (29:24.526) I don't really care. Morgan Francis (29:35.032) Complete. Morgan Francis (29:39.17) Yeah, like, I mean, there's, mean, he went through a phase where all he wanted was rice. I mean, literally that's, yeah, yeah. Yes, yeah. He's not true. He's not, he's not. Bridgett Burrick Brown (29:44.853) Yeah, Scarlett loves rice. Rice is in her lunch a lot. They should be friends, because she's nine. They could eat together. Bridgett Burrick Brown (29:56.685) She'll be like, we'll go to dinner and she's like, could I please have pasta with butter and french fries on the side? And I'm like, okay, whatever. Yeah, I'm like, no broccoli, no, no, she's like, no, like, okay. All right, okay, so we just don't worry about it so much. I like this. Morgan Francis (30:04.622) girl up to the right. Morgan Francis (30:10.68) Yeah. No, he's willing to go out to eat and find something on the menu. I mean, at this point, it's not worth the battle if you want to have the broccoli or if you want to have the pasta with a side of french fries and okay, good for you. mean, like, I don't I don't know. I just don't stress about it. I feel like again, if I really look at my kid as a whole, he's doing great. He's he's active. And he's he's light. He is kind. He's, you know, doing well with what Bridgett Burrick Brown (30:33.728) Mmm. Morgan Francis (30:40.878) I feel really matters if he doesn't get in his broccoli, okay, we'll figure it out and it's not gonna hurt him. I mean, there's way worse things that he could be exposed to on a daily basis. So I took it as a win. Bridgett Burrick Brown (30:55.209) Yeah, I like that you look at like the child as a whole. That's a really good way to look at it. You mentioned a little bit about this earlier, but let's expand on just how to help navigate a positive body image in households. You talked about role modeling a little bit, but what else is it? I think it's almost taking the tension off of it a little bit, right? Morgan Francis (31:21.6) Yeah, it's taken the attention, it's taken the focus, and it's also being aware as a parent, like, what you have on television or what you're reading or how, like, we talked about those environmental influencers. So I don't watch reality television. I don't like seeing women arguing with each other, like, backstabbing each other and gossiping. It's just, I don't... Bridgett Burrick Brown (31:35.648) Yeah. Morgan Francis (31:47.182) I don't like it. I don't do it myself. I'm all about empowering other women and I want my kids to see that. I also make sure that my kids see me without makeup on, like, you know, my stomach that's, you know, imperfect, being imperfect. They see my, you know, changes in my skin. They see... Bridgett Burrick Brown (32:06.016) Yeah. Morgan Francis (32:13.526) just changes in my body and it's okay. I don't always have to look a certain way to them or for them, whether it's private or in public. I also, I don't feel that we don't talk about food in our house. I mean, if anything, my husband's constantly encouraging my kids, did you eat enough? Did you get enough to eat? Make sure you eat before you go to practice. Bridgett Burrick Brown (32:24.363) Yeah. Morgan Francis (32:39.822) Make sure you eat after practice. Like he's that dad bringing the cooler of all the fruit snacks and the jello and the cut up oranges. And, you know, we're just constantly trying to encourage our kids to be nourished and have energy and make food something that helps us. And it can be also really fun to eat. So there's no like, I shouldn't eat that or I've had enough because I've met my caloric imit. Bridgett Burrick Brown (32:54.529) Mmm. Morgan Francis (33:06.45) Limit what my son the other day was like how many calories are in that I'm like, well, let's look at this is how many units of energy? Because that is what a calorie is a unit of energy. So What how many how much energy is in this package of goldfish? And so that's reframed it instead of looking at it as something like caloric that he needs to pay attention to Just went through a really hard situation where my daughter she's 12 was body shamed Bridgett Burrick Brown (33:14.04) Bridgett Burrick Brown (33:21.6) Yeah. Bridgett Burrick Brown (33:27.285) Yeah. Morgan Francis (33:34.294) And that was, you know, like being someone who's obviously a therapist and this is what I specialize in, you know, I had to really just be patient and take my time and be there for her about how she wanted to respond to this. And it, it was done in such a public way by another student. You know, we took our time to figure out what would make sense for her because she's the typical kind of girl that, you know, I'm fine. Everything's okay. Bridgett Burrick Brown (33:40.437) Yeah. Morgan Francis (34:03.822) And I'm really trying to help her. You can have your boundaries and you can say what's on your mind and still be kind and respectful, right? At the exact same time, we can advocate for ourselves and also be respectful in the way and how we advocate for ourselves. And so she really did. And I think she handled it in a really great way. But what's interesting is that Bridgett Burrick Brown (34:16.288) Yes. Bridgett Burrick Brown (34:25.088) Yeah. Morgan Francis (34:30.81) once some of the other girls in our classroom got wind of this, a lot of them were like, that's girl code. You don't body shame. And so it was great to see other girls say, you know, we don't do that. We don't do that to other girls and we need to stand up for each other and we need to be there for each other. And so I was like, okay, there's some good work being done here with a lot of these girls in their homes. And so I was really happy to see that because I think it helped her a lot. Bridgett Burrick Brown (34:47.457) Cool. Bridgett Burrick Brown (34:52.363) Mm-hmm. Bridgett Burrick Brown (34:59.233) Do you think going through the process of or how she decided to go through the process with your help? Do you think? She feels more empowered now. Yeah. Morgan Francis (35:11.864) She does. Yeah. And because before that she was really struggling with her confidence and, and she plays a sport. so her coach kept telling me, you know, she's just, she's thinking too much. She's in her head. Like she's not communicating. I need her to, to just really be more aggressive to the ball. And I was like, but something's going on because I feel like why is she still in her head? Well, this drama was happening at school. And so being able to kind of talk to her about some of the comments that were being said to her by another classmate, then I was like, well, no wonder you're in your head because you're stressed out and you're thinking and you're running through it over and over replaying it over in your head. So let's talk about it. And she was really upset and she's crying. then I was like, okay, I got to make sure like she's not going to try to cut her food down or limit her. Bridgett Burrick Brown (35:42.593) Mmm. Bridgett Burrick Brown (35:50.815) Yeah. Yeah! Morgan Francis (36:08.478) what she's eating. I don't want that to show up in that, which can happen for a lot of people, right? So, and luckily she did it. She's like, I, mom, feel good in my body. I don't, it's not, it's not about that. And that's about her, why she said that that's not about me. So it was, no, it was really empowering. thank you. And I mean, of course, you know, you go through the roller coaster of trying to navigate it as a parent, like how do I approach this? Bridgett Burrick Brown (36:24.863) I love that. That's good parenting. Morgan Francis (36:37.838) But I think, and again, I also think like, I'm really grateful that she felt safe enough to tell me, right? There's a lot of relationships that we can have with our kids and we don't really know what's going on in their life. And so, I think that also when I've had parents be like, my daughter wants to go on a diet, what do I do? And I said, well, Bridgett Burrick Brown (36:48.479) Yeah. Bridgett Burrick Brown (36:55.199) Yeah. Morgan Francis (37:03.182) How do know she wants to go on a diet? She's like, well, she told me the other day she feels really insecure about her body. And I said, how great is it that your daughter feels safe enough to even have that conversation with you? I'm like, good job, mom. Bridgett Burrick Brown (37:13.769) Yeah. And yeah, and interesting also that they jumped to she wants to go on a diet. Right? So if your daughter came to you and said, feel really insecure about my body. What would you respond to her? Morgan Francis (37:22.7) Yeah. Yeah. Morgan Francis (37:27.95) Mm-hmm. Well, I would love to explore it and understand like what is the insecurity? it a feature? Like, is it, you not like your ears? Do you not like your height? Do you not like your stomach? Do you not like your hair? Like what exactly is making you feel insecure and why? Like who's telling you or where are you hearing this that their opinion of you overrides your own opinion of you? Like why did... Bridgett Burrick Brown (37:33.451) Yeah. Bridgett Burrick Brown (37:49.259) Yeah. Mm-hmm. Bridgett Burrick Brown (37:58.58) Yep. Morgan Francis (37:59.17) Why does what they say is true versus how what God gave you and how you were brought into this world? And it's not that we can't feel insecure about their bodies. I get that. I've I've felt years of insecurity body. So it's not that people can't. I just want to understand it. And what like. Right, right. Bridgett Burrick Brown (38:10.113) Totally. Bridgett Burrick Brown (38:14.401) Yeah. And did it come out of the blue? know? Yeah. Yeah. So like being curious, being curious about it. I like that. Do you find that a lot of women that are going through like perimenopause or menopause are struggling with their body image and any tips around that? Morgan Francis (38:21.614) Yeah. Morgan Francis (38:36.17) yeah, I I live in Scottsdale. Bridgett Burrick Brown (38:39.207) No, I know. I'm seeing it too. I'm like, whew, it's that time. Morgan Francis (38:42.862) Yeah, I mean, it's everywhere. It's everywhere. And it's, I mean, I feel like at this point, you know, we can say, I can say I have a headache and it's because I'm peri-menopausal. mean, at this point, so I don't know. I mean, I'm not a natural path. And I always tell them, I'm not a medical doctor. I'm not a natural path. If you have, if you need help around your hormones, those would be your go-to people. But yeah, we need to talk about how you're. Bridgett Burrick Brown (38:53.387) Totally. Everything is blamed on the hormones. Everything. Morgan Francis (39:12.046) how this is affecting your mental health, right? Affecting your body confidence, affecting your sexual health, affecting your lifestyle. And so that I can talk about with. And so sure, I offer a ton of validation because the changes are there and they don't themselves. And again, I think also we live in a world where everything is so filtered. I mean, no wonder we feel this pressure to maintain Bridgett Burrick Brown (39:14.635) Yeah. Bridgett Burrick Brown (39:29.951) Yeah. Bridgett Burrick Brown (39:38.421) Yeah. Morgan Francis (39:41.578) a look of the youth of a 20 year old, you know, and that's, that's unrealistic. And so also normalizing the fact that what we're seeing, there's, there's not representation of diverse aging bodies. Even the most beautiful women are struggling with this. And, you know, it's, this is, this is a war that is not new to us. It's just hitting you now in your forties and fifties and it's never over. Bridgett Burrick Brown (39:54.441) Yes. Bridgett Burrick Brown (39:58.817) Mm-hmm. Bridgett Burrick Brown (40:04.011) Yeah. Morgan Francis (40:08.354) You just have to outsmart it and you don't have to buy into the capitalism of it and continue to live your best life and get the help. Go, go meet with a naturopath and figure out your hormones and what makes sense for you. I've been working with a couple of women lately and they have, and it's been very helpful for them to work with a medical provider to help them navigate their hormones. And so they're sleeping again and they're feeling better about themselves. Doing the cold plunge, red light therapy and going to the gym and Bridgett Burrick Brown (40:14.857) Yeah. Bridgett Burrick Brown (40:33.365) Yeah, yeah. Morgan Francis (40:38.146) But they're not starving themselves. They're like, I need to eat. I need nourishment. I need the protein. I need the fun. yeah. Bridgett Burrick Brown (40:44.949) Yep. Yep. I need the fun. I need, don't forget about the fun. It's so true. How would you define true wellness? Morgan Francis (40:50.798) I know. Morgan Francis (41:00.492) I'm not a big fan of the word wellness. think it's been... Bridgett Burrick Brown (41:03.498) you're not. tell me why. Because everybody. Morgan Francis (41:06.222) I just, think it's co-opt, you know, think it's just wellness is another word for, you know, skinny. I mean, I just feel like it's another word. If we don't see wellness in a diverse way, at least I don't, I don't, I just don't love the word. For me though, like wellness for me is connection and great sex. Bridgett Burrick Brown (41:17.409) Mmm. Bridgett Burrick Brown (41:23.677) Yeah, no, it's so true. Yeah. Morgan Francis (41:36.62) I think that is, I mean, think that's like wellness for me. It's nothing to do with my appearance or what I'm eating at the moment or not eating. I think it's just more connection. I love connecting with other women. I seeing growth, whether it's personal growth, financial growth, spiritual growth and other women. love hearing, you know, what's going on for Bridgett Burrick Brown (41:36.757) Yeah, I love that. Bridgett Burrick Brown (41:41.268) I love that. Bridgett Burrick Brown (42:00.576) Yep. Morgan Francis (42:05.208) for my friends and listening to them. And I appreciate great sex. And I think that's just the key right there. Bridgett Burrick Brown (42:12.149) Love this. I love this. Are you a sex therapist? Do need to talk about that? don't have any questions about... You are? Wait, why didn't I know that? Morgan Francis (42:21.026) Yeah. I don't talk about it on my Instagram. So I don't put it because I really don't want inappropriate pictures being sent to me in my DMs. No, so where I used to work with men was on sex therapy. And so I worked with men for about 10 to 15 years around sexual compulsivity, pornography, infidelity. And so I work a lot in that area. Yeah. Bridgett Burrick Brown (42:30.753) Mmm, yeah, yeah. Bridgett Burrick Brown (42:45.558) interesting. Morgan Francis (42:49.004) And that's where the body image piece came in because of their sexual health and the things that they were experiencing. Bridgett Burrick Brown (42:55.337) Yeah, okay, okay. I have questions, but I think that might be another show because we're already getting to time. Okay. You launched Bye Bye Body Blame. I love that name, by the way. What was the driving force behind creating the course and what do you hope people take away from it? Morgan Francis (42:59.958) I think it works too. Morgan Francis (43:17.934) So the driving force was access. So I felt that when you are a therapist, you're licensed in your state and so you cannot provide therapy outside of your state jurisdiction. And so starting to grow on Instagram, I had so many people be like, I want to work with you, I want to work with you. And I'm like, I can't. So it was very limiting. And so Bye Bye Body Blame came from getting people to have access to Bridgett Burrick Brown (43:31.945) Yeah. Morgan Francis (43:46.58) what I am able to talk about in my therapy sessions. And what was really great about it is that being on Instagram, I feel like it was continuing education, to be honest with you, because I learned from so many marginalized groups that I really, felt within that course, I wasn't also providing a lot of the history of racism that's immersed, obviously, with diet culture and the roots of diet culture. Bridgett Burrick Brown (44:15.85) Yeah. Morgan Francis (44:16.898) I wanted to put more about the BMI. so, so right now it's actually under construction because there's just a lot more that I feel like that I've learned and I've grown as a clinician and understood. So that I, the second part of that is that I created a training program for clinicians, coaches, professionals. And that was released last year to help that was, let me help people that are working with other people. Bridgett Burrick Brown (44:42.356) Okay. Morgan Francis (44:46.232) so that they have a better understanding of body image. And so that's what it evolved to for right now. And that was great. That was very successful. See you. Bridgett Burrick Brown (44:57.281) Cool. I'm going to check that one out. Any other offerings you want to share with us before we finish up? Morgan Francis (45:02.63) I lot of downloadable freebies. So a lot of like how to build body confidence, things around mental health, boundaries, trauma, how to get through the holidays. So I try to make a variety of offerings. So it's not just body image. And then I also have a course on grief and loss that I launched in 2020 during COVID. Yeah. Yeah. Bridgett Burrick Brown (45:23.393) Yeah. Yeah, I love that. So as we finish up, just for anybody out there struggling with their body or disorder eating, but they're not quite ready to maybe admit it or seek professional help, what are some first steps they can take that are just more kind of simple and easy just steps to help them? Morgan Francis (45:53.752) think a lot of people, the reason that they don't get help is because they don't feel like they are sick enough or that they deserve to be helped. Help is something that has never been really just offered or unconditionally provided. was conditioned or it just wasn't available in their house. So even saying like, I need help, Bridgett Burrick Brown (46:00.193) Mmm. Bridgett Burrick Brown (46:20.192) Yeah. Morgan Francis (46:24.408) comes from a very wounded place and allowing ourselves to be helped, I think is very vulnerable for a lot of people. So I understand the hesitancy or the resistance or the vulnerability that comes with allowing yourself to be helped. I myself did not accept help for quite some time because I was like, I can handle it. Bridgett Burrick Brown (46:38.175) Yeah. Morgan Francis (46:54.412) Right? I know what to do. It's fine. It's not that big of a deal. Other girls are struggling with this too. So it's really, it's fine. And it wasn't fine. I was affecting my medical, my medical wellbeing to the point with my AIN disorder. So I think that for anyone that's struggling, I validate you, I acknowledge you, and you are worthy of getting help. Bridgett Burrick Brown (46:54.849) Mm. Yeah. Morgan Francis (47:22.806) you are worthy of reaching out and at least talking to a trusted friend or support system. It may not be therapy. It may be really difficult to get into a therapy office. So it may be, you know, following my page, following your page, downloading those sources, listening to your podcast and there and just allowing some of the things that we talk about to like, like I said, I came across a website and I was like, Bridgett Burrick Brown (47:23.499) him. Bridgett Burrick Brown (47:39.947) Yeah. Bridgett Burrick Brown (47:43.488) Yeah. Morgan Francis (47:52.672) my gosh, I can love the way that it is and that's what it took for me to start making the changes in my own life. So that's where I would say where people can start if willing to start. Bridgett Burrick Brown (47:53.695) Yeah. Bridgett Burrick Brown (48:05.907) Yeah. Yeah. Just getting curious and staying open. Okay. Anything else you want to share before you tell everybody where they can find you? No. you're fabulous. know. Thank you so much. I feel like we could have went on and on and on. I didn't even ask you all my questions, but I'm like, we're going to be here forever. Thank you so much. I just can't wait to... Morgan Francis (48:17.494) No, you're fabulous. That's all I have to say. You're just amazing. Thank you. Thank you. Morgan Francis (48:28.748) This is Bridgett Burrick Brown (48:35.233) listen to it back and soak it all in and I'll see you on the Instagram, on the gram. Bye. Morgan Francis (48:42.602) I know, right? So fun. Thanks. Bye. Bridgett Burrick Brown (48:48.331) I'm gonna stop it.